Sprite art by Scratch Lunin.
A conversation between Yoko Taro and Toby Fox
Orignally published by Famitsu Magazine on 3/14/2019
How about having a drink while playing?
Toby Fox
Yoko, when was the first time you heard about UNDERTALE?
Yoko Taro
Around the time the demo version was released many foreign fans were telling me "This looks like a game Yoko would enjoy" I tried playing that demo version but while playing I thought "Ah, this is interesting but it seems like the type of game that can't be fully appreciated without understanding the text." So I decided to wait until it was localized.
Toby Fox
When you were able to play it what did you think? Did you like it?
Yoko Taro
I thought it was really interesting.
Toby Fox
That's great! I also really enjoyed playing NieR: Automata so I think that my game receiving praise from you is great.
Yoko Taro
Yeah it was really fun.
Toby Fox
It took me around 22 hours to play NieR: Automata, and I saw all the main endings. I didn't see the rest of the endings because it seemed like it would have taken a lot of time... (laughs)
Yoko Taro
It's not necessary to see all the endings.
Toby Fox
How many hours did it take you to finish UNDERTALE?
Yoko Taro
I thought "This is a game that would go great with alcohol" and so because I was drinking while playing I fell asleep in the middle. My playtime was around 50 hours. In reality, it probably was around 10 hours of playtime. When I woke up in the morning the game was still running.
Toby Fox
Well we should write "50 hours of playtime! (That's only if you get drunk and fall asleep in the middle) on the Japanese version of the box. (laughs) Speaking of which, don't you play a lot of games in general?
Yoko Taro
I do, but recently I've been busy and haven't been able to play much. I receive samples of games from Square Enix, but my pile of games just keeps increasing. What about you Toby?
Toby Fox
I haven't been able to play many games... Especially when I was working on UNDERTALE I didn't play anything at all. Even now I don't play many games. I only play games that I really want to play. Because NieR: Automata was one of those games I carefully played through it until the end. So I don't have many games piled up. When I hear that a game has a playtime of like 100 hours I go "Well that's no good." If I had 100 hours of free time I would rather read 20 books, or at least I say that but I spend more time reading Twitter than books. (laughs)
When you first saw the ending
Toby Fox
Yoko, what ending did you get?
Yoko Taro
I only played through it once so I'm not sure which ending I got. But in the ending there was something said like "There's a way without killing monsters!"
Toby Fox
Did you kill Flowey? If you kill him he wouldn't have given you any advice.
Yoko Taro
Ahh, that Flower that comes out in the beginning. I didn't kill him. Because he really pissed me off when he told me to "kill him" I thought "Well now I won't do it!" (laughs)
Toby Fox
So that's it! Killing Flowey is exactly what he wants. (laughs) But I do want you to see the other endings. I hope it doesn't take another 50 hours though. (laughs) Even if it does take that long I still want you to play through it.
Yoko Taro
Because I'm on the creation side of games while playing games that everyone is talking about I can't help but think about what's special about them. So I tend to think about them more from the creator's point of view rather than simply enjoying the game. I realized that there was an option to not kill the monsters which meant that a route for not killing any of the monsters probably existed, and I tried that in the beginning but halfway through I thought "This is too tough" and gave up. I also thought that the goat character that is like your mom (Toriel) was pretty suspicious, I actually thought while playing that she was the final boss. When I learned that she wasn't the final boss I was surprised.
Toby Fox
You can even kill her. Many players feel bad after killing her and think "I made a mistake!" and reset to fix it. When you go back without defeating her Flowey says "I know what you did. You killed her before and thought that you could act like that didn't happen."
Yoko Taro
You really thought of a lot!
Toby Fox
I love to surprise people and to put them into my traps. (laughs)
The Production and Margins of a Middle-aged man
Yoko Taro
UNDERTALE's game design is amazing. Because I thought it was so interesting, I figured that some middle-aged man had made it.
Toby Fox
When I see my own game I think "Some kid who doesn't know a thing about making a game must have made this."
Yoko Taro
Because UNDERTALE is so popular overseas while I was playing it I thought about why that is, it's even become popular among Japanese players. I thought that it captured the common language of gamers and that it was well made.
Toby Fox
I've been curious to see how the game will be received in Japan now that the Japanese version has been released.
Yoko Taro
To be honest, it's impossible to predict. Generally, Japan is a market where it's hard for indie games to make it big but UNDERTALE is already so popular overseas. Like earlier, foreign fans recommended it by saying things like "This looks like something Yoko would like, it has bullet-hell elements in it." and when they said "Someone's making a bullet-hell RPG other than Yoko" I got interested and gave it a try.
Toby Fox
I really enjoy the hobbyist shooting game "Touhou Project". So I wanted to put a bullet hell in my own game.
Yoko Taro
Touhou Project is that special kind of shooting game that gave birth to a culture where fans make cute illustrations of the characters, isn't it?
Toby Fox
It's a bit like what fans of UNDERTALE are doing overseas. I'm not a great artist so fans are free to interpret my iffy drawings of the characters and fix them as they please. To be honest at the time of development if I had seen those fan illustrations I would have thought "Oh that would be much better"
Yoko Taro
Ah... Ah, it's a game with margins so it's nice for players to fill in the blanks with their imagination.
Toby Fox
One of the reasons for having the graphics have that 8-bit style is to allow for that way of thinking. Well strictly speaking it's not 8-bit but it has that rough retro feel to it. Sometimes the sprites of older games would be interpreted differently by the players than what the creator had intended. I liked that about them. In The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past there's a wizard character that appears but I always saw his face as Porky from the MOTHER series. In that way the sprites are simple but your imagination will fill in the details and create a new interpretation right?
Yoko Taro
Oh that's right.
Toby Fox
Well... I think there are various reasons why it became such a hit. It's not so easy to analyze the biggest reason as to why that is. However, I do think it plays a part in that. I was once told, "Isn't the main reason it became such a hit is because of the way it shows people in a genuine way?" That's what people say about your games quite a bit, isn't it?
Yoko Taro
You were around 22 when you made UNDERTALE right? Now (at the time of the conversation) you're around 26. I'm really surprised people 20 years younger than me are doing the same thing as me. It's surprising or rather it's embarrassing that the younger generation has caught up with me. It feels like a new generation of people that can create games almost by themselves.
Toby Fox
No! You do something completely different, we come from different communities so I wouldn't say that it's a new generation. Besides what's amazing is your ability to direct so many people. I could never do something like that. Because of that, I'm practically forced to scrape by making games by myself. I wouldn't be satisfied if it didn't come out exactly how I had it in my head.
Yoko Taro
I thought it was interesting how everything came out as you wanted it in my first playthrough, so I want to play through it again.
Triple-A Games and Indie Games
Toby Fox
UNDERTALE isn't that long of a game, but many players will replay it several times.
Yoko Taro
It's gone down recently but around 10 years ago a games worth would be valued by its playtime, because of this many clients would ask me "Please make a game that takes a long time to play"
Toby Fox
Triple-A titles tend to be like, the longer the better right? It's like saying a longer game is more worth the price. But, I don't think that's a good way of thinking. A game isn't always good because it's long. Take the movie Titanic. It has a run time of around 3 hours, what if it was 80? Most of the movie would just be scenes of doing errands for background characters and encountering rats that then turn into a battle. Would that even be worth watching?
Yoko Taro
On the other hand if triple-A games started to become more streamlined and creative with their presentation it would be a real pain for my business so I want them to stay how they are now. (laughs)
Toby Fox
Definitely, you and I both thought "Why don't I make a game that's different" and because of that our games have a lot in common, so I can see why you wouldn't want to tell people to "do what I did" If everyone makes a "different" game then my game will become more normal.
Yoko Taro
Especially in America it seems that the polarization between AAA games and indie games is growing while in Japan it seems to be more like a large blue ocean. I have the feeling that more recent Japanese games are floating on the surface. For example Gravity Rush shows that games that cost a lot of money can still have the challenging aspects of indie games, I think it's in a really good position.
Toby Fox
I think that many players have been saying that this game reminds them of the Playstation 2 era of games.
Yoko Taro
When I made games for the Playstation 2 nobody really had any idea of what was correct so I was trying many different things. Nowadays AAA games have something of a template that is usually followed.
Sans and Papyrus: The Secret to their Naming
Yoko Taro
I played the Japanese localization of the game but why was the font used for Sans and Papyrus' dialogue different? I enjoyed my time playing the game but I grew more and more curious about why that was the case.
Toby Fox
In America, there are two universally hated fonts amongst creators. Those two fonts are called Comic Sans and Papyrus, and they are used everywhere despite being tacky. A friend of mine wrote a comic called Helvetica wherein the main character is a skeleton named Helvetica and that name comes from a font. It was originally supposed to be just a joke meant for that friend. I said to them "In the game, I also made a skeleton that is named after a font! But even more than that it's a dumb font and when they speak it's in that font!" (laughs)
Yoko Taro
So that's it! I had no idea! I knew that Comic Sans was a pretty bad font but I didn't know about that being the origin of the name.
Toby Fox
In the Japanese version Sans speaks in a Pop-style font. So I considered using the name "Pop" for him in the Japanese version.
Yoko Taro
Pop is also a style of font in Japan that is often considered to be ugly so I think that fits. When playing I thought "Why is this guy using that font?" I felt like there was some message behind it but I had no idea that the message was meant to be "ugly"
Toby Fox
So that's the reason Sans and Papyrus use weird fonts. It was just supposed to be a joke for my friend. (laughs) However, another interesting thing is that many fans have said things like "I want Sans to date me!~~~" or "Sans is super cool!" But he's just a skeleton that talks in a messy font....(laughs) I feel blessed to be the creator.
The History of Game Development
Toby Fox
I feel that there are many "stages" in the history of game development. First, there's the age of arcades, during this time games were like the primordial soup. Then the age of evolution began, many games were made during this time. The time in which Yoko said that nobody knew what was correct. I think the reason that there's not as much variation in AAA games today is the same as why there isn't much variation with movies. Only sequels are being made as the value of a work increases, so does the cost to produce it and a larger team is required. When that happens production companies become wary of taking risks don't they? Because of this background indie games have emerged. Indie games are small so you're able to take those risks. However, I thought that NieR: Automata had many indie-like elements to it, in a good way.
Yoko Taro
Is that right?
Toby Fox
Yes. Anyway, the method of storytelling is very elaborate and then the game becomes this whole hacking world and only text is displayed on the screen right? When I saw this I thought "Oh! Oh! It's like an indie game!" In that way, you could say that NieR: Automata is UNDERTALE for people who like women with sexy asses.
Yoko Taro
Haha!
Toby Fox
On the other hand UNDERTALE is for people who prefer dancing male robots to sexy female androids.
Yoko Taro
That's a simple way to put it. However, I didn't mean to emphasize the character's butts... Honest! (laughs) Square Enix told me "This time make something directed towards the Japanese audience" So I thought "I'll make a game with the kinds of girls that are common in Japan" but... I was told by foreigners "Put more emphasis on the butt!" Speaking as someone who played the Japanese version of UNDERTALE first, I can feel the cultural differences between Japan and America. I had a strong thought of "Don't people overseas see women's butts?" and "Everyone wants to see it but they have no patience for it." I was shocked (laughs)
Toby Fox
Everyone in America wants to see butts... Probably. (laughs) There are many games where you can see a woman's butt. But in the case of NieR: Automata not only is their butt visible but their character is also deep, right? It's not just sex appeal, the player can get emotionally involved. They can say, "I like their character! ...and their butt!" I'm sure nobody would be upset about that. (laughs)
Yoko Taro
Maybe it isn't just about patience... These cultural barriers are thick.
Robotic Clattering
Toby Fox
Anyways I think it's interesting to see that you and I both came up with rather similar ideas such as adding shooting elements to an RPG. Isn't "Fighting might not be so good" a message that is shared between UNDERTALE and NieR: Automata? Your games might always have that element to them but I wouldn't know because I haven't played them.
Yoko Taro
I am an old man and, one of the reasons I made a bullet hell RPG is the fact that I enjoy old games, however as I get older I get bored with various things. For example... Well, I'm trying to explain it a little now but I'm sure to run into a dirty joke somewhere so I'm thinking about explaining it differently.
Toby Fox
haha.
Yoko Taro
Ah, I think this will work. For example, if you eat too much gourmet food you'll start craving strange food! In other words, I wanted to make something that wasn't your garden-variety fantasy game.
Toby Fox
I see! I also had the feeling of "I'm tired of playing games that are similar to each other... Isn't there something different?" more than "I just want to make a really weird game" when I started making my game. However, Nier: Automata was interesting to me when I played it. Its visual presentation in particular was impressive. For example... That scene when the mechanical life forms are trying to make love and a giant egg appears and an extremely handsome man is born from it. (laughs). When that cutscene ends the battle begins with the man's level rising higher and higher and he gets stronger and stronger. The presentation had me saying "Woah!" I was excited.
Yoko Taro
Why did we make it like that?
Toby Fox
That's what I thought too! "Why did you make it like this?!" So it was really good.
Yoko Taro
When I wrote the story I had some alcohol so I think I was pretty drunk when I wrote it.
Toby Fox
I can see that. (laughs)
Yoko Taro
The mechanical lifeforms are clanking together right? (gestures) They're clanking like this. For that scene, everyone on the team including the producer said "That's not happening" in objection so we had to split the mechanical life-form object into two. From then on we said, "Let's see how far apart the two bodies have to be from each other before it's not making love!" We said that if Square Enix had anything to say during the ethics check we'd move them 50cm apart each time. But they gave us the okay the first time around so they ended up clanking very close to each other. Children reading this have no idea what I'm talking about and that's okay.
Toby Fox
There are probably many people who didn't notice what they were doing. Even during the first time I was just like "Alright boss time, let's do it!" Then the second time came around and I was like "Alright another boss fight. Wait huh?!?!" (laughs)
Yoko Taro
Initially I was going to use cutscenes to show the mechanical lifeforms clanking around but it was too annoying so I scrapped that. I thought I would be wasting my life if I had to watch robots clatter around for 3 seconds.
Toby Fox
Ah haha! The player should notice that on their own. The spontaneous moment when you realize it makes it worth it.
Yoko Taro
Speaking of, it seems that UNDERTALE also has some tricks to get the audience to notice. Or at least I think so, I've only done my first playthrough so I'm just imagining here but I can feel a glimpse of it.
Toby Fox
UNDERTALE definitely has that aspect of the player's awareness to it.
Yoko Taro
Well I'm glad you noticed it in the battle. I had to get Square Enix to swallow it.
How about having a drink while playing?
Toby Fox
Another thing I liked was the amusement park scene. Just when I was thinking "This game has a very serious tone to it I wonder what will happen next" an amusement park appeared. There everyone was dressed as clowns and quickly a castle can be seen and fireworks are seen above. That sight was really pretty while at the same time it had a humorous and strange atmosphere.
Yoko Taro
There's a scene with Romeo and Juliet and a musical right? Yeah just as I thought, I must have been drunk when I wrote it.
Toby Fox
And what about the parts you wrote sober?
Yoko Taro
Parts that I wrote sober... I wonder if there are any? I wrote the fun parts while drinking and the parts in between I wrote reluctantly while sober.
Toby Fox
I get what you're saying. (laughs) I don't drink while writing but I often write a lot of strange scenes with no real meaning and then I have to tie them together later.
Yoko Taro
Life is hard isn't it?
Fishing is Important
Toby Fox
It's interesting that no humans appeared in NieR: Automata.
Yoko Taro
Because humanity went extinct in the last game, writing the story for this one was difficult. While writing I regretted that decision. When writing the first game I had no idea that I would be making a squeal so I thought "Let's just go crazy with it" I just randomly made that choice.
Toby Fox
Well extinction can't be helped. So how about this for the next game. With a title along the lines of "NieR Gaiden," everyone just goes to the beach and plays games with each other. Ignore all the other games up to this point.
Yoko Taro
I see. If everyone will buy it I'll make it.
Toby Fox
Of course, in this game, there would need to be fishing. Fishing is important after all.
Yoko Taro
Ah that's right, I did an interview with some foreign press and they asked me "Why do Japanese people always put fishing in their RPGs?" (laughs) At that time I thought "Why is there always fishing?"
Toby Fox
Why did you add fishing into NieR: Automata? Did you think an RPG just needs fishing?
Yoko Taro
Why did I... Just like how American games make you want to shoot guns right away, Japanese games make you want to fish right away. I suppose when you see an ocean you just want to fish.
Toby Fox
Well, the Japanese version of UNDERTALE doesn't have fishing so maybe the whole thing's a bust. I've failed... The Famitsu review will read "You cannot fish in this game, it receives 1/1/1/1 for a total of 4 points."
Yoko Taro
Yeah without fishing... That's gotta be 4 points.
Toby Fox
Yoko, have you ever actually gone fishing?
Yoko Taro
I haven't. I don't particularly like fishing.
Toby Fox
What?! (laughs)
Yoko Taro
But when we saw that beautiful water flowing in the game the whole production staff agreed that "There needs to be fishing right?" Fishing is important after all.
Humans are interesting
Toby Fox
I thought the way humans were portrayed in the game was really good. They were treated by the androids and mechanical lifeforms like gods or role models and have since lost the meaning of the conflict but they continue to maintain their purpose. Almost like a religion.
Yoko Taro
Hey, is it okay to suddenly talk about something so serious here?
Toby Fox
You're always serious.
Yoko Taro
That's not even a little bit true, but anyway, only machines appear in the story. So because I couldn't tell a human story I thought about what a person is through the eyes of a machine. For example, the machines say they need humanity, but what do we need to survive? I think that science, mathematics, politics, culture, family, lovers, and other things that we think of as important are important not because they have meaning to others but because we choose them ourselves, that was the main theme. But all the players focused more on the character's butts than the theme. But with that, I think that humans are really interesting.
Toby Fox
It's human nature to look at the butts. (laughs)
Yoko Taro
I'm with you in that it's not about what we supply it's fun for the players to choose the game, so I think it's okay to say "I like the butts"
Toby Fox
You're right. If I were to force people to interpret my work in this way there would be no reason for them to appreciate it.
Yoko Taro
It's scary to think that people in their twenties can think like that. I'm going to tremble in my sleep.
Toby Fox
I think I'm just going to be immortal somehow. I'll get a cybernetic arm with a blaster and blow away any creatives in their twenties with it. (laughs)
Yoko Taro
The trembling in my sleep will only increase.
What if we thought about NieR as an Indie Game?
Yoko Taro
I was impressed that UNDERTALE stands out in the indie game industry which has a lot of unique games. For me, the indie game world is a red ocean with a lot of talented people competing with each other... Anyways it's a scary world and I'm afraid to get close to it.
Toby Fox
But NieR: Automata has also become a worldwide hit hasn't it? The reasons aren't because it's unique and it comes from a big publishing company, it's because it's unique and a good game. The graphics are very high quality, 3D and the overall quality is great. I think it's hard to think about if NieR: Automata was an indie game but if it was I think it would be a hit because I think it's a good game overall.
Yoko Taro
The game and its high quality graphics are all due to the folks at Platinum Games, I had nothing to do with it. The Platinum Games team that made it was mainly close in age to you around their thirties, it was a young team. Recently I've been feeling the generation gap between creators.
Toby Fox
What's so different in particular?
Yoko Taro
Well... There's a lot of things you don't understand. You said you were around 22 when you made UNDERTALE but when I think about myself at that age there was no way I could have done that. I understand NieR: Automata's action and graphics but if I was the same age as the development team I don't think I could have made the same thing. Young people today are making things I couldn't when I was younger. I feel that with the new development of technology there's a new generation that grew up with it and is familiar with it.
Demon Kings who are Afraid of Changing Time?
Toby Fox
I don't know anything about making 3D graphics but it's difficult to keep up with technology advancing. Although it is easier to do some things now than it was in the past, that's the same for any job involving technology and software right? The only way to keep up or change jobs is with the waves of change.
Yoko Taro
I think you will understand my horror 20 years from now.
Toby Fox
I remember reading an interview where you said that you felt like a demon king waiting for a hero to defeat you. What's funny is that before I read that, I tweeted the same thing on Twitter. I got a lot of e-mail from kids who were fans of the game, and said, "I hope one of you guys comes back in 10 years to top this game." So I think there's a cycle for game developers and I already have a desire to be defeated by someone. But at the same time as I said before I want to be like the master of evil or something and stop the cycle to keep the throne.
Yoko Taro
When I was young, if you thought you wanted to make games you had to join a company, for example making 3D graphics required an expensive computer so it wasn't something you could do at home. Therefore I'm envious of young people now who are in an environment of PCs and smartphones. If I was young and starting out today I wouldn't join a big company.
Toby Fox
Definitely, I think it's great that someone like me who has no programming skill and can't draw can still make a hit game but I envy your ability to get into a game development company. I think many indie game writers are envious of that. There are many things you can't do without joining a company.
Yoko Taro
That's right.
Toby Fox
If I join a company and a game I make becomes a hit do I get a bonus? (laughs)
Yoko Taro
No. If the game sells well you'll get some pocket change. In my case, the business is having people buy what I make so by the time the game is delivered I've already made my money. Well, most of the time my games don't sell well so I'm normally in the red. I happened to win big this time but typically they're in the red, so it's more profitable to have people buy my games.
Toby Fox
So this time around you made something unexpectedly good? (laughs)
Yoko Taro
Probably, at least it seems that way.
Undyne and the 2 Hour Battle
Toby Fox
Yoko it's been a while since our last conversation have you played UNDERTALE again?
Yoko Taro
Before I had only played it once but this time I've finished it for the second time. But it was hard.
Toby Fox
It was hard? Which ending was it?
Yoko Taro
I think I saw the true ending. But what was hard was having to flee in the middle of the fight with Undyne, I didn't notice it but I was fighting her for around 2 hours.
Toby Fox
Ah... There were a lot of players like that. I thought "This is no good" so to coincide with the Japanese release at the end she says something along the lines of "Don't think you can escape!" so you don't have to fight her for 2 hours. (laughs)
Yoko Taro
I had no idea! (laughs)
Toby Fox
I don't think the line was changed yet in the version you played. I changed it just before finishing up the final version.
Yoko Taro
Oh? Does the change in the Japanese version mean that players overseas don't get stuck in that fight for a long time?
Toby Fox
No, I think there's a lot of players who continue to fight there for a long time. At first, I thought it was a bit funny but I've grown more and more apologetic about it... (laughs) It's a little easier to understand now.
Yoko Taro
I think that's good for the Japanese players.
Because This is My Game
Toby Fox
Many older Japanese games had their difficulty ramped up in the American versions, and because of that there were cases where it became less fun. Like with The 7th Saga. I believe the Japanese version is called Elnard but the Japanese version had a good amount of difficulty while the American version was extremely difficult.
Yoko Taro
Recently the times have changed but in the past American publishers would say "Give the game more length by jacking up the difficulty"
Toby Fox
In the past, there was the idea of the difficulty of a game being directly tied with its length. In America, you can rent games so as a publisher it's a problem if you can finish a game over the weekend. If the player learns that you can beat the game in an hour they might not go out and buy their own copy so if the time it takes to finish the game is longer, they will be forced to buy it right?
Yoko Taro
I see.
Toby Fox
So they made it difficult so that it wouldn't be easy to finish, but there were also cases like with The 7th Saga where it became too hard. But nowadays in the U.S, there are a lot of people who like games that aren't too hard so people were saying that UNDERTALE was too hard even though its focus is on the characters and story. They said that there would be people who couldn't finish the game because of the difficulty. But I thought because this is my game I'm going to make it how I like. If this doesn't work for you I'm sorry...
The Credit's Bullets
Toby Fox
As I said there was the opinion that the game was "too difficult" but I think that UNDERTALE is liked by most players. However to be honest I was surprised about that. UNDERTALE was made with hardcore fans of games in mind. I thought that people who play more story-oriented games wouldn't play this sort of game.
Yoko Taro
My first and second playthroughs were interesting. Besides my 2 hour battle with Undyne. (laughs) I could recover my health with items so I felt that I couldn't give up. But it's pretty funny to start making instant noodles in the middle of a fight, isn't it? You have to wait around 1 minute in real-time, I thought it was unique.
Toby Fox
Thank you! Also, what did you think about the barrage of names during the special thanks credits?
Yoko Taro
I thought it was a really good game. Besides the credits, other things also surprised me while playing the game. By the way, is it better to hit the bullets in the credits? I tried to avoid them as best I could but when I hit a name I thought "Oh! Do I need to change the color of all the names?"
Toby Fox
It doesn't matter how you look at it, it just has a warm feeling to it. It's just for fun.
Yoko Taro
I see. Also, it's kind of nice you don't die when you're hit during the credits. NieR: Automata also has a shooting section in the credits but you die if your ship is hit by a bullet.
Toby Fox
I thought in UNDERTALE it would be too much to die after reaching the credits. But in NieR: Automata I think it works to have the player die during the barrage. I believe that section gets high praise from the players. You said that there were sections in UNDERTALE that you found surprising. What were those?
Some Surprises and the UI Production
Yoko Taro
The first thing that surprised me was that games are made by making a base and then adding elements on top of it, but in UNDERTALE I couldn't find much of a base or it seemed to be playing tricks on me.
Toby Fox
tee-hee.
Yoko Taro
For example, I thought the UI of the battles' command menu changing based on the situation was cool. At first, it's seen as a normal UI, but I was really surprised when a certain command was destroyed in the final battle.
Toby Fox
Thank you. I'm glad!
Work in as Many Ideas as Possible
Yoko Taro
First of all, it's amazing how UNDERTALE works in the composition of the screen for dramatic effect. Moreover, Toby had already incorporated that into the game before I did it in NieR Automata, I have a strong feeling of being beaten to the punch.
Toby Fox
It might be presumptuous to say something like this but I'm sure we have similar ways of thinking somewhere. In the case of UNDERTALE the concept originated from playing many RPGs and thinking, 'Why do I need to defeat enemies?' I always get little hints of ideas from various things but I like to ponder excessively about everything. Therefore, I think the place to implement features in a game is where you can incorporate something unusual or interesting.
Yoko Taro
I see.
Toby Fox
In my case I thought even the manual could be used as a place to set up interesting elements that could surprise the player.
Yoko Taro
The manual?
Toby Fox
In the demo version of UNDERTALE I included a manual. It was an external HTML file with many embedded images. I also inserted many different images into the game and set it up so that, when certain conditions were met in the game, that information would overwrite the images in the manual. Specifically after reading the manual if you played the worst route of the game by killing all the monsters the pages would turn blank. More precisely, they would all change to the face of Flowey, but the text would vanish. It was pretty spooky. The players who encountered that were quite surprised.
Yoko Taro
You come up with all of this even though you're so young...
Toby Fox
Age and coming up with ideas have nothing to do with each other.
Yoko Taro
No no no no no, it's really scary. I don't know how I'll live after this.
Toby Fox
You're also cleverly coming up with places to stick new ideas right? I remember seeing some interview where you mentioned the idea of dropping the frame rate intentionally in specific parts like boss battles. I thought that was a really interesting idea.
Yoko Taro
Well, it's just that I'm approaching my 50s so I think the fatigue of the last 20 years is starting to show. You're only 26 there's a lot of your future to look forward to. The fact you're already doing things that are quite similar to what I'm doing with themes that resonate with people means that there's a future where you continue to develop those ideas. I'd like to see that future.
The Merits of Working Alone
Yoko Taro
UNDERTALE's battle system mixes in shooting elements. I like shooting games but some people might find it difficult if they're no good at those sorts of games. The game is also rather mysterious, only revealing its true nature after you finish it. I believe there are many people who will like the game once they've finished it but it might be hard for people who just get a look at the game to know if they'd like it or not.
Toby Fox
Yeah that's right... I figured it would be a hit if Playstation 4 players were interested. Even if it gets poor review scores or is heavily criticized I don't think it would affect me all that much so I try not to worry about it. In Japan around 70,000 people have already bought the PC version.
Yoko Taro
It seems that the number of people playing games on Steam has risen in Japan. The culture around playing indie games hasn't quite formed yet. So when I heard that it was coming to a home console I thought "that sure sounds like an adventure". I think you made the right decision on that though.
Toby Fox
In Japan I wanted as many people to play the game as possible. Because of that I felt that releasing it on PC wasn't enough. Although the Japanese version hasn't been released yet I hope that the console version will be a solid hit in Japan.
Yoko Taro
We talked about this in our last conversation as well but the similarities between UNDERTALE and other hobbyist games such as Touhou Project are the gaps in expression, that is to say that there's a large amount of margins which makes it difficult for the player to fully understand everything. Both games are really well made.
Toby Fox
I'm glad to hear that I love Touhou so many inspirations from it pop in UNDERTALE.
Yoko Taro
The Touhou series is pretty famous for its bullet hell elements being used to express a character's personality, in that aspect I believe UNDERTALE and Touhou are similar.
Toby Fox
Definitely the expression of the characters in the shooting sections is similar. You might feel the same way due to being a fan of shooting games yourself. The music of Touhou was also a big inspiration. In Undyne's battle theme for example I used the same trumpets that ZUN often uses.
Yoko Taro
It was surprising but good work with the soundtrack. Not even with just the soundtrack but also the way it was used in the game. The songs were catchy of course but I was often left thinking "playing this song here is really nice~" Games like this typically have good music but UNDERTALE is able to achieve a particularly good vibe.
Toby Fox
I'm also glad to hear that. It's a bit easier for me because I make all the music myself. I'm able to freely adjust the music to fit the scenes as much as I want. When writing music for someone else's work a certain amount of compromise is necessary from both parties. I could come up with what I think would work well for the scene but the client would have their own input on it. However because this is my own game I'm able to write the music exactly as I want so it's easier in that regard.
Yoko Taro
I can't believe the story for UNDERTALE was written by someone in their 20s. I thought there were a lot of details in the dialog. Especially a character like Alphys who is sort of a loser and has their loserness written well. I wonder what'll happen when people who can write like this in their 20s reach 30 or 40. (laughs)
Toby Fox
I don't think it'll change much from now... Or maybe I'll just get worse. I wouldn't be shocked if I peaked already (laughs)
Yoko Taro
The way Alphys is depicted as an unpleasant character is consistent with the format that most of those sorts of characters follow but by the end it's hard to dislike her. I was surprised at how well the characters and their personalities were created.
Toby Fox
There's a lot of opinions about that character. Overseas there are many people who say that they hate Alphys or just that they can't like her.
Yoko Taro
How should I say this... UNDERTALE has a quite interesting storytelling approach, depicting something like the love between people and the way it distorts that is interesting.
Toby Fox
Distorts?
Yoko Taro
The portrayal of the brotherly love between Sans and Papyrus. The way you use Papyrus' silly aspects and the relationship with his protective older brother Sans and how the player intervenes in that dynamic is brilliantly crafted. The relationship between characters feels self contained but by involving the player it creates a sense of familiarity. It was all quite cleverly done.
The Influence of the MOTHER Series
Yoko Taro
During many of the conversations in the game there are moments where the dialog will have brief pauses sometimes. That way of conveying the story to me seems like the skill of an experienced director.
Toby Fox
When writing character dialog I try to read it all to myself out loud. The reason for this is that I want it to feel like you can hear a voice in your head while you play it. I want the player to feel the pauses between the lines. In reality when people speak they don't talk smoothly and with a constant rhythm. So, in the game, by adding pauses, I wanted to express more realistic conversations. Adding pauses is very effective and an important element in terms of direction.
Yoko Taro
The retro UI and the expressions were all very refreshing to me.
Toby Fox
I think that's probably the influence from MOTHER. MOTHER 2 and MOTHER 3 use similar pauses for dramatic effect in their scenes. I think subconsciously I've grown to be able to write lines similar to those seen in MOTHER... Of course you can just adjust the timing and contrast of the conversations to change the result. That goes for any media.
Yoko Taro
UNDERTALE is able to betray the players initial perception of it being a simple game by adding in those sorts of directorial touches such as the little spaces in dialog. I want to convey the game's charm and quality to the readers but it's difficult to do. If I said anything it would be a spoiler so I have to choose what I say carefully.
Toby Fox
That's right! It's really tough... So I hope when the Japanese version finally releases players in Japan will receive it well and there aren't any misunderstandings about the game's appeal.
Yoko Taro
Personally I don't think that there's anything about the game that won't be well received in Japan.
Toby Fox
Thanks! That's a relief.
Under the Pressure of Success
Yoko Taro
To be honest, when I look at creators who are under 30 like you I think we are very different. Different ideas and workflow. It's not that one is better than the other; it's just like we're different species. That's why it's hard to compare the two.
Toby Fox
In 15 years I'm sure I won't be able to understand the people who were inspired by my games to make games. So I think I'll understand what you mean soon enough.
Yoko Taro
Because of the advancement of technology, people in your generation will be doing what took me 20 years to do in 5 years. I'm looking forward to seeing how it grows and the new world it creates.
Toby Fox
We might hit the law of diminishing returns with that. I was able to learn a lot about game development quickly but that was only because of the people before me who laid the foundation by creating fantastic games. As we talked about before, during the early days of game development everyone was making games without much knowledge about them. But now those who haven't made games can absorb knowledge from vast libraries and learn from the experiences of those who came before. Most of my ideas come from various sources and without those sources I don't think I would have been able to make anything.
Yoko Taro
We old people hope you absorb everything and move on to the next stage.
Toby Fox
I'll do my best. What's the next stage for you?
Yoko Taro
I'm fortunate that NieR: Automata sold well, and I want the rest of my career in games to be great too. That's the stage I'm at right now.
Toby Fox
I feel like I'm in the same boat. Unlike you I've only made one game, but I think everyone is looking forward to the next Toby Fox game. So when I announce my next project it feels like I might not be able to surpass those expectations and I could take a nosedive. (laughs) The new generation might die off quickly! (laughs)
Yoko Taro
In cases like that it might be best to rely on other people's imagination. Some people might think it's not what they were expecting while others might like it and say "There's gotta be some deeper meaning to it!" Either way I think you'll stick the landing.
Onto the Next Project
Yoko Taro
I really am looking forward to what you have in store next but if I'm honest I think it'll be difficult for you to make another game.
Toby Fox
Why do you say that?
Yoko Taro
UNDERTALE involved many experimental and unique elements. I think people will expect similar ingenuity in your next project.
Toby Fox
Oh I see. That makes sense.
Yoko Taro
Until now it was fine to do what you liked but now you'll be creating games with the context of it interacting with the wider world. With such a situation I'm curious to see what you'll come up with next.
Toby Fox
Thank you for everything today. I truly appreciate you playing my game and supporting it. I'm sincerely grateful.
Yoko Taro
Thank you for inviting me. I had a good time. I look forward to the day when I can see your next project.